Rogue Barbarian
Don't go into CHA?
- Let's avoid CHA (and look at WIS instead), always fall back on Intimidation builds
- We shouldn't do this because the Ruffian needs to rely on Trip (MAP penalty) or Feint.. and Feint requires Deception.
- We can dump WIS and rely on Assurance (Medicine) with the number of Skill Feats the Rogue has access to
- Assurance galore... but we might want to think about how we can work Trick Magic Item in here?
- The lower hit point progression (8) hurts, I'd like to have 10 here as a Swashbuckler but that's a different concept/build.
- We really start to fall behind under builds as we level up.. The +8 hit points per level is noticeable compared to the Champion or Barbarian.
Assurance (Athletics) and Assurance (Medicine) are both fantastic here, Assurance (Deception) and Assurance (Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion) are worth looking into:
- We're going to progress to Expert/Master in these skills quickly as a rogue.
- We'll likely want to use Assurance (Athletics) to attempt trips after MAP penalties.
- Trick Magic Item with consistent advances in Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion lets you keep up with casters with scrolls and wands.
We have an interesting problem to solve if we want to focus on Trip (for Flat-Footed) so we can reliably Sneak Attack
- MAP becomes a real problem for us.
- The Longspear doesn't have the Trip trait so we don't benefit from the range.. plus, it's 2-handed so we can't use a free hand
Stats
I typically advocate for a +6/+2/+2 spread across Ancestry/Background/Class because of how ability scores increase throughout leveling.
Ancestry
- Orc - Extra HP, no flaw (sad) but a perfect fit. Hold-Scarred Orc and the Orc Ferocity path shore up our weaker durability until the Barbarian Dedication kicks in.
- Dwarf - Favorable ability boosts/flaws if we dump CHA but the movement speed penalty hurts (and we don't get it back by wearing Heavy Armor)
- Lizardfolk - Favorable boosts/flaws, heritages are pretty bland (gives us an opportunity to look at uncommon heritages)
- Hobgoblin - Fantastic Ancestry feats for Intimidation; lots of heritage options.
I'd lean towards Hold-Scarred Orc since so we can take Field Medic as our background and progress towards Godless Healing. The Orc Ferocity path shores up some of our durability issues.
Orc Ancestry Feats
- Level 1: Orc Ferocity
- Level 5: Defy Death
- Level 9: Death's Drums
Level 9 can be just about anything. Death's Drums is kind of interesting with Diehard -- you could justify keeping Wounded 1 for a free +2 bonus to your Fortitude saves.
If we take Hobgoblin, we can't take Field Medic as our Background (or we need to use the Alternative Rules for Ancestry Boosts) because we need STR/CHA from either the Ancestry or Background.
Hobgoblin Ancestry Feats
- Level 1: Remorseless Lash
- Level 5: Agonizing Rebuke
- Level 9: Cantorian Rejuvenation and Squad Tactics are great (even Fell Rider if you can figure out a way to get an animal companion)
Archetypes
Barbarian Dedication (Giant)
We're meme-ing with this build -- we want oversized Longspear. Hopefully we can convince our GM to oversize the weapon at level 6 when we get our Instinct Ability and just use it for RP flavor until then.
Staff Acrobat
It requires higher DEX than I'd like but it gives the Longspear Shove and Trip.. but there's no reasonable way to get 18 STR, 16 DEX, and reasonable CHA and CON (14+) by level 2... and not waste the DEX or STR increases.
Medic Dedication
Taking this at level 2 gets us Continual Recovery (awesome). We just don't need it as a Rogue since we get Skill increases every level.
Fighter Dedication
I have fairly strong opinions about the Fighter Dedication being subpar for most classes but you can get access to Intimidating Strike with it. Intimidating Strike essentially combines the Demoralize Action with the Strike Action but removes the Intimidation check to apply the Frightened condition.
The main problem with Intimidating Strike for this build is that, as a rogue, our main focus is on making a creature flat-footed so we can trigger Sneak Attack. Up until this point, we've built Intimidation to be a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option to make a creature flat-footed without suffering from a multiple attack penalty. Once we add Intimidating Strike to our arsenal, there's no reason for us to invest in Demoralize since Intimidating Strike applies the Frightened Condition for free (but after our Strike action) -- so no Sneak Attack trigger on our first attack.
That said, it's a good backup plan for this build and you could do something like this for your progression:
- Level 2: Fighter Dedication
- Level 4: Opportunity or Basic Maneuver (Intimidating Strike)
- Level 6: Basic Maneuver (Intimidating Strike) or Opportunity
- Level 8: Advanced Manuever (Knockdown)
- level 10: Fighter Resiliency
I think Rage's boost to survivability and damage outweighs the convenience of Intimidating Strike (and getting Attack of Opportunity early)... and it takes too long to get Knockdown for a consistent way of triggering Attack of Opportunity.
If the Fighter Dedication is interesting to you, I'd encourage you to replace this build's Rogue class with Fighter
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=368 https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/ftjssy/fear_me_intimidation_build/
Skill Feats
General
- Assurance (Medicine)
- Assurance (Athletics)
- Assurance (Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion)
- Additional Lore
- Multilingual (trained in Society)
Assurance in Medicine guarantees our Treat Wounds (and Battle Medicine) will always be a successful at either 2 or level 3. Assurance in Athletics allows us to attempt combat manuevers, like Trip and Shove, on enemies when we'd normally have MAP (and it can potentially help us determine how strong our enemies are). Assurance in one of the four magic groups allows you to use Trick Magic Item without committing Ability Score Boosts to the associated stat (Intelligence).
Additional Lore is the default choice if we ever don't have an option. We can choose topics as we learn about them and this Skill Feat scales with our level. Multilingual is another option for us if we have run into language problems.
Medicine Skills
- Battle Medicine (from the Field Medic Background)
- Expert (2): Continual Recovery*
- Expert (2): Ward Medic*
- (2) Godless Healing
For the low cost of two skill feats, out of combat healing is completely trivialized with Continual Recovery and Ward Medic.
Godless Healing is somewhat selfish but greatly increases my own survivability as long as there's another person with Battle Medicine.
Intimidation Skills
- Intimidating Glare (from Raging Intimidation)
- Expert (2): Intimidating Prowess
- Master (7): Battle Cry
- Master (7): Terrified Retreat (optional)
- Expert (15): Scare to Death (from Raging Intimidation)
Athletics Skills
- Titan Wrestler
Honestly, not even sure if I want or need Titan Wrestler. I don't know if Trip, Grapple, or Shove is necessary in these encounters.
Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion Skills
- Trick Magic Item?
Starting Gear
- Longspear (5sp)
- Breastplate (8gp)
- Healer's Tools (5gp)
- Adventurer's Pack (15sp)
- Club (0gp, apparently they are free?)
- Staff (0gp, apparently they are free?)
No Crowbar. :sad:
- Thundermace?
- Buckler?
Progression
Level 1:
- Class Feat: Nimble Dodge
- Skill Feat: Assurance (Medicine)
We can't use Assurance at level 1 for Treat Wounds but since we'll be an Expert in Medicine at level 2, we can reliably Treat Wounds using Assurance.
Level 2:
- Skill Increase: Medicine (Expert)
- Class Feat: Brutal Beating
- Free Archetype: Barbarian Dedication
- Skill Training: Anything, maybe Occultism? Nature? Acrobatics?
- Skill Feat: Continual Recovery
Brutal Beating synergizes with the Hobgoblin's Remorseless Leash that it justifies that Ancestry choice alone.
Level 3:
- Skill Increase: Intimidation (Expert)
- General Feat: Toughness
- Skill Feat: Ward Medic
Ward Medic should make healing after combat encounters completely trivial, I'd rather not take this Skill Feat if I don't have to since it feels like we're cheesing the system but it seems like the standard strategy.
Intimidating Prowess gives us a bonus to our Demoralize action and we're an Expert at this level (and it buy us one level before we get Intimidating Glare). I anticipate scrolls and wands might show up around this level and at least someone can use it.
Level 4:
- Skill Increase: Athletics (Expert)
- Class Feat: Dread Striker
- Free Archetype Feat: Basic Fury (Raging Intimidation)
- Skill Feat: Intimidating Prowess
Dread Striker makes Demoralized enemies flat footed. Flat-footed is a condition penalty and Frightened is a status penalty, so they stack. Again, more synergy with the Hobgoblin's Remorseless Lash. Ideally, we're not Feinting anymore.
I hate waiting until level 4 to get Intimidating Glare, but I knew the Barbarian had this Class Feat. You could get Barbarian Resiliency here instead if you need the extra hit points.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/11d3e7q/what_level_is_the_best_level_to_take_titan/
Level 5
- Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS (or DEX), CHA
- Skill Increase: Deception (Expert)
- Ancestry Feat: Agonizing Rebuke
- Skill Feat: Trick Magic Item
By this point, we should be able to keep enemies in a fear lock after we Demoralize them and after we pick up Agonizing Rebuke, it's free and constant mental damage.
We've delayed Trick Magic Item too long and depending on the party's arsenal of wands and scrolls -- you might want to take this earlier.
Level 6
- Skill Increase: Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion (Expert)
- Class Feat: Gang Up
- Free Archetype Feat: Instinct Ability
- Skill Feat: Titan Wrestler
Increase Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion based on party needs.
I'm delaying Titan Wrestler as long as I can since I don't want to overly rely on Athletics but we should have taken it a level or two sooner. We can expect to start running into Huge monsters somewhere around here. We might run into them sooner than this (or never) but since Tripping and Grappling is something we might want to make things Flat Footed, it's worth picking up.
Gang Up is another way for us to attack flat-footed targets, so at this point we have very little reason to miss an opportunity for Sneak Attack.
Since this character was created for the Gatewalkers Adventure Path, I'm picking up High-Speed Regeneration with my Class Feat.
Angle-shooting Time: We might really need hit points by this point. If your GM is willing, it's worth foregoing the class feat for Barbarian Resiliency -- it increases our hit points by 15%. The Gamemastery Guide calls this tactic out (they might not let you do it at all or they might reduce the hit points gained by 3):
Free-archetype characters are a bit more versatile and powerful than normal, but usually not so much that they unbalance your game. However, due to the characters’ increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character’s number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats). Allowing a character to benefit from a number of these feats equal to half their level is appropriate, as this is the maximum number of feats you could use to take archetype feats without this variant.
Level 7
- Skill Increase: Intimidation (Master)
- General Feat: Fleet
- Skill Feat: Battle Cry
Big Intimidation level for us here. Fleet or Shield Block for the General Feat.
Level 8
- Skill Increase: Athletics (Master)
- Class Feat: Opportune Backstab
- Free Archetype: Barbarian Resiliency
- Skill Feat: Godless Healing
I touched up on it at level 6 but we want more hit points, so Barbarian Resiliency here.
We now have a ton more hit points, Godless Healing makes Treat Wounds more efficient for us and if we found ourselves getting downed too often in combat, Battle Medicine works ever hour now. We could have taken this as early as level 2 and it would have been a good choice.. so keep that in mind if you're getting knocked unconscious.
Level 9
- Skill Increase: Deception (Master), Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion (Expert), or Thievery (Expert)
- Ancestry Feat: Cantorian Rejuvenation
- Skill Feat: Assurance (Athletics)
Deception might not even be necessary anymore, pick up that Magic skill if you don't find yourself taking the Feint Action.
One of the goals with this build was to test out Assurance (Athletics) and Gatewalkers ends at level 10... so I'm out of time if I want to try it out.
Level 10
- Skill Increase: Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion (Expert/Master)or Thievery (Expert/Master)
- Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS (or DEX), CHA
- Class Feat: Dazzling Display or Vicious Debilitations
- Free Archetype: Advanced Fury (Sudden Charge, Fast Movement, or Swipe)
Just shoring up the potential weakness with Trick Magic Item in the Magic skill of choice, otherwise take Thievery.
Dazzling Display is similar to the Barbarian's Terrifying Howl. Creatures effected by this ability are immune to it for 1 minute but they aren't immune to Demoralize until the Demoralize action is taken on them. Vicious Debilitations is a good backup plan if you don't have issues with the Demoralize lockout or need a second try at it.
It feels weird taking Sudden Charge, a level 1 feat, at level 10... but it's probably the best option. Fast Movement is good but Sudden Charge probably outclasses it. Swipe is pretty situational but it's useful when it comes up.
Level 11
Level 12
- Skill Increase:
- Class Feat:
- Free Archetype: Advanced Fury (Attack of Opportunity)
- Skill Feat: Terrified Retreat
6th level is a big deal for Barbarian, you get Attack of Opportunity and Giant's Stature. Clumsy doesn't stack (it always takes the higher value) and since we're already Clumsy 1 when we use the oversized weapon, there isn't a drawback to Giant's Stature; it's unfortunate it's an action (I wish it was a passive effect when we used Rage) so Attack of Opportunity is probably the right call at level 12.
With the addition of Attack of Opportunity, we can now trigger it with critical successes on Demoralize actions.
Level 13
Level 14
- Free Archetype: Advanced Fury (Giant's Stature)
Level 15
- Skill Increase: Intimidation (Legendary)
Level 16
- Skill Increase: Athletics (Legendary)
- Free Archetype: Advanced Fury (Furious Bully)
Level 17
Level 18
- Free Archetype: Juggernaut's Fortitude
We delayed Juggernaut's Fortitude as long as we could and if you don't think you'll make it to this level, you should pick up sooner.
Level 19
- General Feat: True Perception
Level 20
- Free Archetype: Advanced Fury (Silencing Strike)
We're capstoning the free archetype with Silencing Strike. This replaces your normal Strike.
FAQ
What are the best ways to make an enemy flat footed?
Flanking is the easiest way to make an enemy flat footed but Feint and Trip are the bread and butter of this build. A Grapple's critical success will restrain the target, making them flat footed as well.
You could also Create a Diversion but Feint is better in every way.
When a creature takes the Stand action, are they flat footed on Attack of Opportunity?
No, the Attack of Opportunity happens after they complete the action since they never moved out of the square.
Move Actions that Trigger Reactions
Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=446
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/10m037d/can_someone_clarify_this_question_in_the_rules/
Resources
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/ftjssy/fear_me_intimidation_build/
Is it worth getting Intimidating Strike from the Fighter? I think it changes the build enough that you might not worry about CHA at all.